Curse

The Josip · May 30, 2010, 12:23 PM // 12:23

(HM, PvE)

This is not a theorycraft thread that many like so much. I'd like to keep this one scientific - which means I'm interested in your perception/impression, experience, and exact empiric data (mainly time frame).

* How strong and useful are these new builds compared to old EVAS spammer which was the strongest mesmer build pre-buff? If you could rate top3 or top5 mesmer builds right now, which ones would those be? I don't mean just in power, but overall killing power + mitigation. And what would be the ranking in fun factor.

* How useful do you find Panic in general areas, and how in high-end ones?

* Same for Psychic - are knockdowns worth the loss in damage? Yes yes, you can nicely knockdown, but in practice, how good is it versus just going all-out damage?

* Energy Surge? vs VoR.

* Keystone Signet.

* Ineptitude.

* Interrupts in general.

----

Here's some of my observations after not-so-much testing but nevertheless:

Ineptitude build seems very strong, especially when monsters are herded. Can't quite estimate how good in terms of power it is vs EVAS spammer, but considering that EVAS has downtime occasionally (AP removed, or monster doesn't die on time), this can possibly be better. Armor ignoring AoE skills which you can spam, and AoE blind. This is definitely my favorite build right now.

Keystone builds I still find bad. Even when I was able to spam Signet of Sorrow, I just wasn't satisfied with it (especially because if you spam signets you run out of Keystone effect). I've yet to see Keystone build that comes to 50% of firepower Ineptitude build can pull out. Some options are nice - mesmers can bond, yes. This is good to have, but useless for all practical purposes.

Energy Surge I tried in NM with mesmer heroes (ES x3 plus Burn etc).. and I admit it was fun and monster energy was actually drained very fast (Mind Wrack was triggering). Need to try it in HM. I was never a fan of VoR for whatever reason, so I can't give comparisons to it.

Panic I did not like at all. But I'll try it I hope in very crowded areas. Panic has anti-synergy with a lot of mesmer skills, and it doesn't provide damage either. Same for Psychic which I've yet to try.

Direct interrupts I still don't find useful on humans. Ok CoF was always cool but generally speaking, Mistrust is king. With interrupts, one basically needs to babysit some monster as ANet itself said, and then interrupt needs to be worth it. But are they? Really? In real battle, what is going to be more useful, Power Drain or Drain Delusions? I don't have that good ping, but even if I had it, I wouldn't use interrupts. Sure I can Power Spike. Then again, I can just spam anti-melee hexes in Ineptitude build. Is there a nice elementalist in a mob? Now, what is better, interrupt him, or cast Pain Inverter on him. I'd much rather prefer PI - much more damage (possible instakill as well), doesn't require babysitting, doesn't require reflexes and good ping, PI is useful against melee too, and at the end of a day dead ele is less of a threat to the party than interrupted ele. Mistrust+PI+Mistrust is ultimate anti-caster (non hexer) combo as far as I'm concerned.
I mean, you have Clumsiness that will trigger even on a caster. Why would you bother with Power Spike? ANet wanted to make interrupts more viable, but where are they? Mistrust isn't direct interrupt, and this spell was good even before the buff. Direct interrupts are surely interesting when it comes to elite such as Psychic, but that's about it.
If someone disagrees and thinks that mesmer interrupter is a viable build, let me see it. I even tried new Frustration which is OK skill, but it really synergizes better with non-mesmer skills such as some Rt weapon spells or Spinal Shivers or Dissonance.

awry · May 30, 2010, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Well i've taken a panic mesmer and you're right, it's hard to synergize it with other mesmer skills, but it is pretty potent especially if you can make all the enemies ball up on a target before you call it. It's the same issue with ineptitude. The great thing about panic is that in strong caster mobs, such as with elementalists and mobs with strong healing(such as peacekeepers), it can also screw over those guys which ineptitude cannot do until they start running out of energy and begin wanding.

The Josip · May 30, 2010, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by awry

Well i've taken a panic mesmer and you're right, it's hard to synergize it with other mesmer skills, but it is pretty potent especially if you can make all the enemies ball up on a target before you call it. It's the same issue with ineptitude. The great thing about panic is that in strong caster mobs, such as with elementalists and mobs with strong healing(such as peacekeepers), it can also screw over those guys which ineptitude cannot do until they start running out of energy and begin wanding.

In which case if they start running out of energy because of Panic alone, your battles are probably too long and drawn out, and you could use faster build. That's my point with Panic and Psychic.

Waiting for Panic to trigger 10x so they lose energy is just too long.
Let me give you an example. Last time I did WiK quest it was with people and the NPC was in Kessex Peak. The group was killing Peacekeepers so fast, that most of the time I managed to only cast direct damage spells.
The thing with Panic is that it might give you more protection, but you can't rely on chance, so your PuG group (or heroway) should always have enough heals to survive Peacekeepers. This means that in practice the result of Panic will only be higher energy for monks who will be bored. Peacekeepers spread a lot so Panic does not affect many of them, in practice (my observation).
On the other hand, Ineptitude will almost always trigger, even on casters.
With Panic, you have to stay away from Mistrust and such spells/skills, which I feel hurts more than help.

It should be noted that GW is more about speed now, than about getting something done. It's not a matter of "can we do something with this or that skill" but "how fast it can be done". This is why in practice, in 99% of areas, Panic and Psychic clearly lose. Sure, they might be good on paper, but in practice you just lose a lot of speed.

Lanier · May 30, 2010, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Ill get back to you on the other topics later, as I havnt really tested Vor vs E-surge or either of those vs ineptitude, although they all look like pretty powerful options.

As for direct interputs on human players, I would say they are absolutely worth it. The issue with monsters casting spells in HM insanely fast for interupts has been fixed so that humans can realisically rupt 3/4 - 1 sec spells. Psychic instability is just soo powerful now. It can rupt any skill, is cheap and has a low recharge, and has a pretty wide AoE KD effect for 4 seconds. That is such a powerful effect. It is true that Instability requires you to focus on one target, but the effect still has a nicely sized area of effect, and I believe this makes up for needing to focus on one target.

Power Drain is the one interupt that almost never leaves my bar, mainly due to the rediculous energy return vs recharge (around +15 energy with a 12-13 sec recharge for around 10 FC and 10 Insp). you mention drain delusions, which is another great e-management skill, but the problem with drain delusions is that it requires another, spammable hex to drain. In damage-oriented builds, I would prefer shatter the mind wracks and Wastrel's demises than drain them. Still, Drain does have a shorter recharge and gives a pretty good energy return at 10 insp. Still, you have to remember that power drain is an interupt, and therefore can assist your team with extra passive defensive while fueling your damage skills. I was running a domination build today when VQing the garden of seborhin, and I chose to bring along Pdrain for an energy management skill. It proved really useful not only for feeding me energy but also in protecting my team from the roaring ether's energy surges and the ruby djinn's SFs. The thing about pdrain is that it is a multipurpose skill, providing energy and giving you another rupt to play around with.

With the new buff to mistrust, power spike is definitely overshadowed. I still like to use power spike because of its cheap cost, but I would say that when it comes to strait up damage-interupts, mistrust wins over any direct interupt. Cry of Frustration is now a really good skill, however, as it does a nice amount of damage and can rupt any skill, something mistrust can not do. Because CoF's damage is AoE, I would say that it is worth babysitting one enemy for a little bit in order to get that damage off.

Finally, in my testing of the new skills, I have found interputs to be useful for two other reasons. One is allowing Wastrel's worry to activate, which does a good bit of AoE damage. While the damage from WW doesnt have a very large AoE range, it still is likely that a WW will hit at least two enemies. I have found that in hm, interputs or some type of shutdown are pretty necessary if you want the damage from WW. Finally, the fact that WW is AoE somewhat justifies having to focus on one enemy, and this is even more justified if using an AoE rupt like CoF.

Frustration is another skill I have played around with, and I have found the damage to be pretty good when multiple interupts are used. While Mistrust can be used to activate frustration, I have found that using power spike and CoF to activate the damage useful as well. When you add the ar-ignoring damage from whichever rupt you use to the damage from frustration, it really is pretty powerful. I know that using frustration required speccing points into illusion and domination, but I havent really had energy problems by using Gole and Arcane conundrum (another good skill if you want to be able to rupt 1/2 second spells).

Anyway, so my take on direct rupts is that they are worth it. While they do require focusing on one target for a little bit of time, many of the effects now are AoE, thus negating this downside. In addition, the side effects to these rupts are just flat out powerful, and they are even more powerful when combined with skills that combine well with ruts like WW or frustration. Mistrust is a great skill now, but Power Spike, CoF, and CoP can still do a lot of armor ignoring damage for whenever mistrust is recharging or when you want to rupt a non-spell skill (for Cof and CoP.

Cuilan · May 30, 2010, 05:33 PM // 17:33

AP builds are sorta stronger with Chaos Storm and Unnatural Signet...

I run Ineptitude with Wandering Eye and friends. Glyph of Lesser Energy and Arcane Conundrum with no points in inspiration. Takes a bit of practice, but energy is far better than it once was for that build. Even though the numbers are high and armor ignoring, you have foes who run and casters who don't always wand. That part really hurts, but I guess I can just switch out Ineptitude for Shared Burden or Psychic Instability.

I disliked domination before the update and still dislike it.

Energy interrupts are now useable, but I wouldn't make a whole build on rupting.

Splinter Weapon is basically signet builds. They're fun and refreshing, but poor on heroes and if you don't target foes near each other or switch as foes move around. I never ran out of Keystone Signet's effect when spamming signets.

Mandragor in a Can now allows you to have more deep wound.

Venla · May 30, 2010, 05:53 PM // 17:53

I brought Panic on Gwen in order to vanquish Sacnoth Valley in HM and I was amazed....I dont' recall having a single death, except possibly Master of Whispers at the beginning due to bad flagging or something like that. Borguus Blisterjerk and his little friends went down in a couple of seconds. The rest of the fire forest was equally easy. Normally that area is a nightmare...

That being said, I've tried Panic in other locations and wasn't that impressed....I've come to the conclusion that Panic is best against large groups of caster foes that like to ball and spam (djinns, afflicted, margonites) and pretty much useless elsewhere. YMMV.

Still see energy surge/edenial as being more of a pvp thing. Signet builds are good if you want to let's say have some spare energy for great dwarf weapon and strength of honour, but that's about it. Your best bet for raw damage is probably the ineptitude/clumsiness/wandering eye combo mentioned above.

awry · May 30, 2010, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

In which case if they start running out of energy because of Panic alone, your battles are probably too long and drawn out, and you could use faster build. That's my point with Panic and Psychic.

Waiting for Panic to trigger 10x so they lose energy is just too long.
Let me give you an example. Last time I did WiK quest it was with people and the NPC was in Kessex Peak. The group was killing Peacekeepers so fast, that most of the time I managed to only cast direct damage spells.
The thing with Panic is that it might give you more protection, but you can't rely on chance, so your PuG group (or heroway) should always have enough heals to survive Peacekeepers. This means that in practice the result of Panic will only be higher energy for monks who will be bored. Peacekeepers spread a lot so Panic does not affect many of them, in practice (my observation).
On the other hand, Ineptitude will almost always trigger, even on casters.
With Panic, you have to stay away from Mistrust and such spells/skills, which I feel hurts more than help.

It should be noted that GW is more about speed now, than about getting something done. It's not a matter of "can we do something with this or that skill" but "how fast it can be done". This is why in practice, in 99% of areas, Panic and Psychic clearly lose. Sure, they might be good on paper, but in practice you just lose a lot of speed.

Well your example with kessex peak is something that is true, but only true when you've got a party of human players who can abuse pve skills. Can't do that when half your party is henchmen and you may have to rely on subpar healing if you plan to bring the damage. By the way, I do agree that ineptitude is stronger, but ineptitude is in the illusion line, so a comparison is moot if you want to abuse the skills in the dom line. And within the dom line there are only two viable choices really for pve, energy surge or panic.

Chthon · May 30, 2010, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

(HM, PvE)

This is not a theorycraft thread that many like so much. I'd like to keep this one scientific - which means I'm interested in your perception/impression, experience, and exact empiric data (mainly time frame).

People have a tendancy to see what they want to see. You're going to end up with theorycraft anyway....

Quote:

* How strong and useful are these new builds compared to old EVAS spammer which was the strongest mesmer build pre-buff? If you could rate top3 or top5 mesmer builds right now, which ones would those be? I don't mean just in power, but overall killing power + mitigation. And what would be the ranking in fun factor.

They're easily on par with sinspam.
Having NOT had a chance to test everything extensively, here's my thoughts as of right now:

Sinspam is weaker than it was before with the FC change.
Mandragor-in-a-Can is stronger than it was before with the buff to FD and a new e-management skill in Illusion.
I'm very impressed with a developmental build I call "Draino." OQdUASBPOvRLQxANBLB2iQBqAHgA
Psychic Instability is imba.
Panic is kinda disappointing.

Quote:

How useful do you find Panic in general areas, and how in high-end ones?

So far, I haven't found anything terribly useful with it. It's decent, inconsistent mititgation that seems to have no synergy with anything. It seems like Frustration ought to have a nice synergy, but the triggers are inconsistent.

Quote:

* Same for Psychic - are knockdowns worth the loss in damage? Yes yes, you can nicely knockdown, but in practice, how good is it versus just going all-out damage?

Yes, they're worth it. The KD serves several useful functions:

Mitigation. Depending on you FC rank, foes are going to be on the floor some 30-40% of the time.
Snare. Being KD is -100% movement speed.
Breaks healers. Some of the toughest mobs in GW are tough because they have strong healers. Knock them to the floor for 4 sec and you've got a window to kill them.

A better question is: What goes with it? I haven't really settled on anything, but here's some food for thought: Both Wastrels spells are guaranteed to trigger. Wastrel's Demise seems like good fodder for Shatter Delusions.
A few off-mesmer skills have interesting potential too: Aftershock, Sloth-Hunter Shot, Renewing Smash. I'm not sure if these could be incorporated into a mesmer build, or just set up an intrateam synergy. (Though I'm really tempted to run around with 12 FC and 12 Hammer and IAS and try smacking things 5 times with Renewing Smash...)

Quote:

* Energy Surge? vs VoR.

Neither. AP+AE+Chaos Storm outshines them for damage.

Quote:

* Keystone Signet.

Haven't tried it yet.

Quote:

* Ineptitude.

Haven't tried it yet.

Quote:

* Interrupts in general.

By changing the HM cast speed bonus, a-net solved the "interrupts are impossible" problem. The "why interrupt when you can just kill things?" problem still remains. Insofar as several interrupts got really strong collateral effects (see Psychic Instability), some of these skills are worth using for their collateral effects.

Oath · May 30, 2010, 08:53 PM // 20:53

I would have to say that Energy Surge is pretty decent now, though it was already fair prior to the buff. You can really spam it away with other skills and produce insane armour-ignoring AoE numbers; it is better than the pre-nerfed tri-CoP builds as you don't base your entire bar on that one skill, rather compliment the bar with other options, which is the case with the current Energy Surge. However, the more mesmers you fit in the team, the weaker it becomes due to its reliance on e-denial.

Panic, Psychic Instability and interrupts in general are simply not optimal in the sense that, damage wins PvE. As has been said, you are simply postponing the end by interrupting; it could be a defensive play style, a way to negate damage fairly reliably, but I simply refuse to believe that it beats pure, potent damage that could tear mobs apart. In that sense, these changes are welcome for a more diverse choice of skills in PvE - I just think they are vastly outclassed by better damage dealing ones.

AP EVAS still seems fair for solo-target damage, and now that some potential additions to it have been buffed, I can only see it becoming better. As far as I am concerned, I would continue to use it in areas where mobbing is lacking, meaning all the above options are inferior.

As for Ineptitude, as awry pointed out, you sacrifice your main line for it. Albeit, I might not be the right person to ask about that, as I have always found Domination to be superior in every possible way compared to Illusion, despite the new improved options given to the latter.

FoxBat · May 31, 2010, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Pretty much addicted to clumsiness/illusion type thing. The emanage with arcane conundrum just spoils you, you see lots of big numbers and lots of interrupted attacks, and I've been bringing PI as elite for locking the few stubborn monks or ele bosses you run into every now and then. I mostly run spiritway pressure variants so am not so big on the AP centric builds since that switch from discord, and something like chaos storm is the only mesmer skill that really have significant downtime after fastcasting buff.

Quote:

but I simply refuse to believe that it beats pure, potent damage that could tear mobs apart

Did you drop all healers and prot from your team yet then? When you start stacking the anti-physical mitigation of minions/spirits with the anti-big ele aoe mitigation of mesmers, there's much less reason to bring more than 1 healer, let alone bothering with imbas or defense spirits. I've been testing some split vanqs (2 teams of 4) lately to vanq echovald/jade sea, and it's been very easy to get by with just spirit light, MB&S, and life crammed onto an SoS hero. Daesu also has that build posted of his friends that ran 2 mes hero, an MM, and only one hench healer very well.

The difference is that the mesmer gets to deal some decent AoE damage while shutting down. The freedom to drop a healer might not amount to much when picking between lackluster hench damage support, but it's relevant everywhere else.

cellardweller · May 31, 2010, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oath

Panic, Psychic Instability and interrupts in general are simply not optimal in the sense that, damage wins PvE. As has been said, you are simply postponing the end by interrupting; it could be a defensive play style, a way to negate damage fairly reliably, but I simply refuse to believe that it beats pure, potent damage that could tear mobs apart. In that sense, these changes are welcome for a more diverse choice of skills in PvE - I just think they are vastly outclassed by better damage dealing ones.

PI creates required "kill" window in heal happy areas which frees up the warrior to take hundred blades/whirlwind instead of DragonSlash/Brawling Headbutt (for example) meaning that a no-damage skill could result in your group having a higher damage at the end of the day.

Oath · May 31, 2010, 09:41 AM // 09:41

I somewhat accept your point about a "window" that forms whenever the opposing team is under heavy interruption; then again, devoting an entire bar for the sake of interrupts, or even half of it, might not be ideal. As I mentioned in my previous post, you could compliment Energy Surge and AP based builds with some other skills, which include CoF as well. I suppose PI and Panic could also be used in that sense - fit more damage on top of the interrupting elite and have a pretty compressed bar in terms of skills and efficiency.

Having said that, interrupts are still not the most optimal option if you simply want to get things done as fast as possible. If we are talking about actual shutdown that forms said window, total damage is still your answer. More specifically, HB/MoP combo with some balling and two warriors could wreak havoc.

cellardweller · May 31, 2010, 10:19 AM // 10:19

PI doesn't create a window because of the interrupt, its the 4s of being knocked down that follows it. As an example the two PI bars I've used most extensively are
[pi][mark of pain][barbs][enfeebling blood][power drain][mirror of disenchantment][rend enchantments]
[pi][signet of clumsiness][arcane conumdrum][wandering eye][power drain][mirror of disenchantment][sypathetic visage]

FireWhale · May 31, 2010, 11:46 AM // 11:46

I've been having a ton of fun with builds based around frustration. Tested mainly with WiK mobs, btw.

8+1 fast casting, 12+1+3 illusion, 10+1 inspiration
Frustration
Clumsiness
Wandering Eye
Signet of Clumsiness
Leech Signet
Power Drain
Cry of Pain
Tease

That's what I'm using right now. I chose tease as my elite because it fit the theme of the build. I still haven't tried ineptitude since I think I have great melee hate with clumsiness, wandering eye, and signet of clumsiness (8, 8, 12 sec recharge reduced even further with 9 fast casting). Regardless, I'll give Ineptitude a go the next chance I get.

One downside I've found is that I want to precast frustration on anything because I use any other spell. the mesmer is rendered useless for the ~1 sec cast+after cast. Since the build focuses on interrupts, that second could be crucial in the battle, such as stopping a heal. Regardless, I've found the extra 53-106 extra damage on all my spells is a suitable compensation for this.

I just tried out ineptitude. I really don't need 4 skills devoted to killing melees. Not to mention with frustration , clumsiness and wandering eye do more damage than ineptitude (at least to the hexed target).

I've also tried e-surge builds, e-denial, panic builds, keystone, PI and crippling anguish (man crippling anguish was great in pvp before the nerf). To summarize, I found e-surge to just be another ho-hum damage spell. It does what it does and that's that. I think that a dom build without hexes would be better off with VoR than e-surge (just my opinion). E-denial was fun, despite the lower damage. keystone was underwhelming, but there's a bit of potential there. Psychic instability is definitely a game-changer. Bring one of these along and you've got extremely good shut-down. crippling anguish is bad in pve.

funnily enough, I found that I've been forgoing my usual "must take 3 pve skills" rule since the synergy between mesmer skills now create a whole new play style that have skills on par with pve power. power creep indeed.

Lopezus · Jun 01, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

I still haven't tested all new abilities but that's what i observed on my mesmer ( not heroes) : PI looks great but practicly is not that useful : at the begginig is not that hard to kd mobs, but in frenzy of fight in HM is quite hard to control the situtation and time it correctly. Panic in some situations works very well, but as it was said often it lacks synergy.
AP still wins, EVAS and reacharge aside,it has great energy return.

The Drunkard · Jun 01, 2010, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Shared burden is broken in HM, -50% casting, movement, and attack speed really makes a difference.

Esurge is alright, though I prefer VoR in hm since monsters spam skills anyway.

Signets are mostly garbage except for bonding your team.

PI is nice to alleviate pressure from your team from heavy hitters like rits or eles or stop healers or prots in their tracks- I'm loving the change.

I think panic still is a bit useless because HM is full of spamming monsters.

Inepitude/Wandering eye/clumsiness will net you some nice AoE damage, and are almost spammable because of the FC change.

Top5:
1)Shared burden mesmer
2)EBVAS
3)PI
4)Ineptitude
5)Esurge/vor

maxxfury · Jun 02, 2010, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Came to the conclusion that again, ap still comes out on top for my style of play...
echo Cstorm (or sin for smaller groups) prime mindwrack and fire cop* (or unnatural sig, or shatter delusions) then ofc AP+fH! for a recharge+energy

Its actually very similar to what i ran pre-buff....oh well

some other bars to mess with too but this is what works best for me

OQdUAQBPEvSLQLBNB7ixkxA2giOA
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Pv...Submit+Q uery

or this heavier aoe version for giggles

OQdUAOBPMfSNBLBxA2gbApiLQxNA
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Pv...Submit+Q uery

Again see * for cop.

*yeah the degens add up a fair bit and help add up the dps a little..and has in interrupt thats useful

Maybe its just a throw back to the old days but i still like it

tho unat sig/shatter dels are also pretty solid D

Quail Stomp · Jun 02, 2010, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Im a big fan of PI just from the fact of its offense and defense potential. You get 4 secs of a mob not being able to do any kind of dmg and any aoe type spells in the team build are more effective since they cannot kite. I would not run more than 3 rupts on a bar, most of the time just pi and cof. PI sets up ww and unnatrual sig along with chaos storm to do a good amount of dmg. I havent played it much in pve yet but have been capping in jq in about 5 secs which is a decent rate of dmg.

cellardweller · Jun 02, 2010, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Judging by how much chaos storm is mentioned here, I must be missing something. Isn't it just a pulsing aoe doing 25dps for a few seconds before scattering everything out of the bodyblock that your warrior worked so hard to set up? Where is the allure coming from?

Smarty · Jun 02, 2010, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Panic was great before the Mind Wrack nerf. It's not quite as good now. I use it regardless because I get such a kick out of seeing the !!'s above monsters' heads. I'm finding the Wanted quests as easy (if not easier) on Smarty as I do on my SoS rit or my imba, whether pugged or h/h'ed, and that's not something I could have said pre-buff. My impression of a Panic build is that the level of damage mitigation is about on par with bringing an imba - as long as the foes are semi-balled.